Question:
I wonder why people in this forum assume that when I ask a critical question I am supporting Albania?
2007-09-21 10:52:14 UTC
I raised the question of torture in Greece and had a bizarre response which mostly criticised me, assuming I was Albanian. This is very strange. I am not Albanian, though of course I absolutely deplore the recent torture of Albanians that was broadcast on YOUTUBE.
Certainly, many of the alleged incidences of torture in Greece involve foreigners and often Albanians, but not all.
My question remains:
Is there any media coverage or news about the trials of those men accused over 3 years ago of torturing Afghans? Mexicans? Is there news of any progress in the case agaisnt the police for brutality agaisnt the Johnsons (beaten up in 2003), any compensation for the Planespotters (2002-3), any progress in investigations into brutality and the murder of gay people in Spices bar; any compensation for the false imnprisonment of truck-driver Wilson (2003); Joseph Okeke( electrocuted by the police in Pallini); progress in cvases agaisnt abuse of Greek Nationas protesting against conscription
Thirteen answers:
reifguy
2007-09-21 11:44:50 UTC
hello ,where r u from then?
Frank B
2007-09-21 12:21:29 UTC
Why on earth do you assume I (or anyone else) do care where are you from? I just don't get why the heck one would ask such a question in a travel section and try to make a big fuss about Greece neglecting at best so many countries worldwide with far bigger crimes on immigrants. What's so fascinating about Greece mate? What's next? The Caicos islands? Is that the issue now?



No! Nothing ever happened to any of these guys (policemen). Are we happy? No. Do we need this? No. Do we care? we damn do. But then, the saddest thing is that this is exactly the case in most countries. The problem is not just in Greece. The army and the police of any nation are the last to get criticized in public. The church as well...



Those three powers have committed, are committing and will continue to commit the biggest crimes on this planet.



Now tell me you are surprised...



PS: Do you remember what happened to this poor Brazilian immigrant on London's tube last year? Got shot and killed "accidentally" by British policemen. Do you know what happened to those guys Tim? Do you care to know?



Not to seem arrogant here but I really think you need to see the movie "This is England". Quite moving I must say...



Then, is there a truly serious case for Greeks torturing...Mexicans and Afghans? Do you really have a firm idea what's going on with Mexicans and Afghans in the US? Pakis and Indians in the UK? Turks and Moroccans in Germany and the Netherlands? Algerians in France?...



Its a shame really because the last 10 years, I am traveling from Japan to Fresco to the down under and back and even in...Vermont, I have seen racism spreading all over.
cpinatsi
2007-09-21 14:21:22 UTC
We are all against torture or any kind of abuse. However, there is a specific intention in accusing a specific country in a travel forum like this, as many have pointed out. If you are British as you say, why didn't you post this question in the British section, as torture is and has been practised by far more in or by Britain than in Greece? There have been films of Muslim UK citizens that were held and tortured for years without even having been officially acused or stood trial. And films of falsely accused Irish people, tortured in the past. And more to the past, Cypriots that were so badly abused that they were keeping them behind a wire mesh, so that their relatives would not see the wounds, and then they were buried in the jail after being executed, to hide evidence of the torture.

If I were British, I would really try to correct things in my own country, then the countries in which my involvement has created human rights problems (like Afghanistan, where teh Taliban took power when US and UK supported them to defeat the Soviets), then other countries where decapitations and stonings are part of the daily agenda (like Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, etc.), then wannabe EU members where people are jailed for speaking their minds, then "European" countries where votes are being harassed and minorities are being treatened and nuns are raped, before accusing any other country for having 2 Albanians slap each other on the cheek, which is of course bad as well, no question about it.
2014-08-23 00:01:04 UTC
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Denicia
2007-09-21 14:37:32 UTC
Very strange.England helped Greece in 1946 baned and killed Macedonians from Aegean Macedonia. You used napalm bombs for women and little kids, since Greeks bayonets and knifes. Do you remember?Greece is your country, you give money for develop of Greece, you give money for help after fires, you should not criticize that what is yours.

Honestly, I though you are Albanian, or you have Albanian heredity.

Why TOEFL if you are English?

https://answersrip.com/question/index?qid=20070921122209AASbGId&show=7#profile-info-heB0Z2OHaa
2007-09-21 13:37:42 UTC
You shouldn't 'wonder why' because all people everywhere are aware of their enemies, or to put it in more politically correct terms, who to expect media manipulation from. Albanians are masters of this unworthy craft. Just a glance at your opinions voiced here, and your area of interest speaks for itself. Why would you be so interested in Greece and its media coverage of their internal affairs? The only other section you posted Q&A is Turkey, but with no similar hostile comments. Why? Aren't there any interesting cases of human rights violations in Turkey? Hmmmmm..... makes one wonder, doesn't it? Now, that's what I call strange and bizarre: a human rights activist with a selective approach, having eyes and ears ONLY to give Greece a bad image; very strange indeed.
The_last_Amazona
2007-09-21 13:20:30 UTC
Since you are British (?) and not Albanian (!) why then do you bother with Greeks and the Greek issues and not concentrate in British issues that would benefit your country?

Why not put your energy into protesting for something more meaningful to you and more beneficial to your people....like the war in Iraq? And maybe raise the question about atrocities by the British there....

Ohhh, maybe not, sorry I forgot this is a travel forum and you would not want to hurt "your" country with your negative comments here
2007-09-21 13:26:00 UTC
A "British" keen to defend human rights and prove to be anti-racist.

Apart from what Frank said, must I remind you of Process Diana's mysterious death after her having been sentimentally involved with an Arab?

What about British imperialistic former empire? Let's all remember british crimes and discriminations in India, for example. And as Dellarovere said, your crimes in Cyprous (Karalis-Dimitriou, do mean something to you?).

Even though you don't convience me you're British, let's talk about what you and Albanians have in common: Theft.

Your museums are full of stolen archeological treasures, the Parthenon Marbles to begin with, only that you are more sellective while Albanians steal more common things.

Ofcourse, this difference does not make you look better.



How dare you talk about Greek immigrants and compare them to Albanians?

My family "immigrated" to Italy some 30 years ago for professional reasons, and although we all came back, everybody in Rome still has a good word to say about us.
2007-09-21 12:36:33 UTC
You say you're British. In that case, why wasting your time with Greece and not with the crimes of your own country all around the world? Aren't you the ones who committed hundreds of crimes against Greek Cypriots (gallows)? Aren't you the faithful allies of U.S.A. who approve and participate in any king of atrocity against humanity for the past 60 years? And you are trying to convince us that you're the fighter of human rights? You don't convince me with your persistence in defamation our country intentionally.

And in addition: Greeks immigrated to other countries, but they worked hard, they have been respecting the laws of the country they went to, many of them became recognized scientists and politicians, and they never slaughtered peasants, old women and men, even children, they never created a mafia, they never became the fear and terror of the country they immigrated to.

Enen in London there is a Greek community of distinct Greek shipowners who contribute too much to your (?) country's welfare.

So, give us a break, you are the least to criticise Greeks.
2007-09-21 12:13:54 UTC
Noone must bite the hands that feeds him.
2007-09-21 11:46:13 UTC
Because you are an Albanian, dear.
2007-09-21 14:12:48 UTC
Here is a report on the mexicans. Oh, and for the record, I am Irish. (lots of human rights abuse there too) Strikes me you lot who monopolise this forum are a bunch of racist zealots, but there we are. Who cares. Well, I do, because I expected more. And this aggressive name-calling is the sort of thing we grew out of in play-school. Grow up, boys!



On reflection, Tim w is right to post here in the tourist forum because God knows we should encourage people not to visit a country that has such raving nationalists who cannot be bothered to discuss a perfectly reasonable proposition.



As I said before, I know this man. He is not an Albanian, is who he says he is. He also has direct experience of torture in Greece so has more right to discuss these issues than many of you. If you want to bury your head in the flag and believe that all is great in Greece, please go ahead!

In the past, I have been sceptical of some of the things he has told me - of the terrorist camp in Lavrion, for instance- but your attitude confirms his worst fears and convinces me absolutely.

You bring shame on your country.

---------------------------------------------------------------------



Greece4 August 2004

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=11073





Concern at possible obstruction of news coverage on eve of Olympics



Reporters Without Borders today said it was "outraged" that two journalists with the Mexican TV station Televisa and their interpreter were arrested, handcuffed, insulted and hit by members of the Greek coastguard on 2 August as they were doing a report on Piraeus, the main port of Athens, where eight ships, including the Queen Mary II, are to serve as hotels during the Olympic Games.



"We welcome the fact that an investigation is under way and we call for it to be fast and thorough," the organisation said, noting that the Greek authorities had made contradictory statements about the incident, and that the exact circumstances needed to be clarified as quickly as possible.



Reporters Without Borders added: "Security measures are legitimate and necessary but they in no way justify aggressive behaviour that is utterly reprehensible. We hope that security procedures will not unnecessarily obstruct journalists in their work as this would tarnish the image of the Olympic Games."



The merchant marine ministry claimed in press release yesterday that reporter Eduardo Salazar, cameraman Russel Vaquiero and interpreter Fernando Kalligas "tried to flee by car," forcing police to detain them. The port police has roundly denied the allegations of violence, humiliation and insults.



The two journalists and their interpreter have denied trying to escape. Kalligas said they were at a spot overlooking the port where there was no sign saying filming was prohibited. They were about to leave when a military jeep arrived. Three uniformed men got out and confiscated their IDs and accreditation, along with their telephones and equipment. The officials then searched them in such a violent way that one of them fell to the ground. At the same time, they were insulted and threatened.



According to Kalligas, they were then handcuffed and take to the headquarters of the port police. Vaquiero was ordered to put his hands on a table. When he did not comply quickly enough, a policeman banged his head against the table.



Kalligas said that when an official from the 2004 Athens Games organising committee came to verify their accreditation, their handcuffs were removed. But they were put back afterwards. They were then led to a kind of gymnasium while being administered kicks to make them walk quickly. There, with their heads bent and legs wide apart, they were again insulted and threatened. When a policeman began to lower the trousers of one of the journalists, an officer came in and said: "None of that here." The behaviour of the policemen changed completely when senior military officers arrived.



The journalists were only able to telephone their TV station when the Mexican ambassador arrived. They filed a complaint today. The Greek news media yesterday just reported the Mexican TV crew’s arrest without mentioning their claims that they had been subjected to violence. When the international news agencies reported the allegations that they had been hit, threatened and insulted, the local media just used the statement issued by the merchant marine ministry.



The day following the incident, four Mexican journalists were detained near a military base in Tatoi, north of Athens. Previously, a photographer with Agence France Presse (AFP) who was taking photos in the tourist quarter was detained for several hours on 28 July. Another AFP journalist was forbidden from photographing the site of the marathon although he was in the street, not inside any Olympic installation.



about Lavrion: from TIME magazine

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/1998/int/980330/europe.a_hellenic_haven.19.html

A Hellenic Haven

The flight of Kurdish refugees to Greece adds to a cycle of violence and vengeance



By MASSIMO CALABRESI





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



t's not every day one sees recruits inducted into a terrorist organization. But at the Kurdish Cultural Center in downtown Athens it happens three or four times a month. About that often, a self-described "political branch" of the Kurdistan Workers' Party (P.K.K.) sets up a few dozen plastic chairs in a room on the center's dingy first floor, hangs the red and yellow P.K.K. flag on the wall and carts in a Yamaha electric organ to pound out Ey Ragip, a P.K.K. anthem. Grizzled P.K.K. loyalists watch as recruits proclaim their allegiance to the armed movement that has earned a place on the U.S. State Department's list of terrorist organizations. "Five to 10 Kurds leave here every week to return [to Kurdistan] and fight," says Rozerin Laser, Bal-kans general director of the National Liberation Front of Kurdistan (E.R.N.K.), the P.K.K. political group that seeks a Kurdish homeland in parts of Turkey, Syria, Iran and Iraq.



The P.K.K. recruitment of Kurds in Greece is an overlooked link in the vicious cycle of refugees and revolution across Europe's southeastern frontier. In January, an influx of thousands of Kurds into Italy and Greece reminded the rest of the E.U. how permeable its borders really are. But not all Kurdish asylum seekers end up in Western Europe. Some join the P.K.K. and return to would-be Kurdistan to fight, fueling more Turkish repression and a new flood of refugees and potential P.K.K. recruits. With the Greek government turning a blind eye, P.K.K. representatives claim the recruiters are free to start the process over again. The latest refugee crisis, says one senior Western diplomat in Athens who specializes in terrorist issues, "unveiled Turkey's appalling human rights record and revealed the porous frontiers of Greece and Italy." But, he says, "It also took the wrappings off Greece's tolerance of rebel Kurds."



The E.R.N.K.'s induction ceremonies are just the tail end of the process for turning refugees into revolutionaries. The real indoctrination and recruitment goes on at places like Lavrion, 45 km southeast of Athens, one of about five main refugee camps for the 100 or so Kurdish asylum seekers arriving each month. Although hardly lavish, the camp boasts an 18-inch color TV with a satellite dish to receive daily broadcasts from MED TV, the Kurdish news station. Kurdish camp leaders use cell phones for calls to their "brothers in battle," as they describe their cohorts on the outside. The crumbling walls are hung with pictures of P.K.K. strongman Abdullah Ocalan and martyrs to the Kurdish cause.



"This is the greatest help that Greece is providing us," says Ferzeyn Iskender, a self-proclaimed P.K.K. loyalist at Lavrion. "It is here away from their homeland that the Kurds nurture their ethnic identity, learn who they are, what they stand for, how they've been abused by the Turkish authorities." He points to a group of children playing in the compound's concrete courtyard. "Listen," he says. "They're singing Ey Ragip." P.K.K. tutors arrive twice a week, according to camp leaders, to teach the history of Kurdistan, its language, customs and traditions, subjects that would be illegal in Turkey. But P.K.K. activists at the camp quickly turn such topics into propaganda. The E.R.N.K.'s Laser admits that her success in recruitment "is the result of a process of ideological training."



Turkey says Greece is aiding and abetting the P.K.K., citing the confessions of P.K.K. members as proof. "We are just stating what P.K.K. terrorists captured in Turkey are saying," says Sermet Atacanli, a spokesman for Turkey's Foreign Ministry. "They have been trained in Greece, both ideologically and militarily." "Lies, lies, lies!" responds Greece's fiery Foreign Minister, Theodore Pangalos, to accusations of Greek involvement. Western diplomats monitoring the P.K.K. say there's no hard evidence substantiating such accusations, but that "there is a gray area in the field of financial support."



Much sympathy and support comes from the Greek population itself, which sees parallels between the Kurdish nationalist movement and their own 1830 liberation from the Ottoman Empire. "The same thing is happening now with the Kurds," says English teacher Kaiti Piperopoulou as she delivers school supplies to Lavrion. "We must help them." The P.K.K. builds on that backing, circulating fundraising leaflets festooned with symbols of Greek, Kurdish and Greek Cypriot unity and bearing slogans like, "The solution to the disputes in the Aegean and Cyprus goes through Kurdistan." The leaflets always include the bank account numbers for the E.R.N.K. "We are not hiding what we are doing," says Lavrion's Iskender.



In the U.S., such open P.K.K. activities would be a breach of the Anti-Terrorism Act of 1996 and would bring prison sentences of up to 10 years for those perpetrating them. But in Greece, the P.K.K.'s terrorist fire spreads virtually unchecked. Across the border, Turkey fans the flames with its draconian treatment of the Kurdish minority, and year by year more Kurds are drawn into the conflagration.



--Reported by Anthee Carassava/Athens





Turkish Daily News:PKK’s Cooperation with the Greeks

Monday, September 10, 2007

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=82837



Greece's support for the PKK:



It is obvious that the PKK is supported by Greece, considering the PKK's historical development with major support from Greece. Greece has always intended to damage Turkey in every way and seize a portion of our land as a part of its ‘great idea', “Megali Idea”.



To this end, Greece initially helped the establishment and assistance of ASALA, the Armenian Terror Organization, with the agony she experienced after our 1974 Peace Operation in Cyprus. Following our state's strike against ASALA, Greece changed her tactics and started to play its cards on Kurds.



In this context, first it initiated the “Lavrion Camp” near Athens. Ayfer Kaya with the code name Rozarin, who was responsible for military training at the Lavrion Refugee Camp that was once used to treat foreign refugees, told in an interview with the Time Magazine that Kurdish young men coming to the camp receive military training under the auspices of Greek officers. They are then they sent to Turkey for terrorist activities.



It was known that until the 1990s, Lavrion was one of PKK's most important training bases along with Bekaa Valley. Those activities in Lavrion, which is still known to function, are continuing right in front of the secret services of our so-called NATO allies. This point, and the fact that our allies are trying to take advantage of the PKK card for their intentions about Turkey, is more obvious when the origins of the guns captured from the PKK are considered.



It is an acknowledged fact, that Lavrion and the support given to the PKK is a national policy of Greece and it is backed by every Greek government and the deputies of PASOK, DIKKI and the YDP.



Following developments and information about the PKK's active presence in Greece as a result of Greeks' and Greeks Cypriot's vengeance pursuit for their defeat in 1974 are presented in various media agencies:



· Stelyos Papathemelis, who was a member of the Greek Parliament, was a PASOK member who nourished and directed ASALA's and PKK's activities against Turkey. In 1978-1979, he joined and represented his party in the conventions organized by ASALA in various European countries, and made speeches such as: “Turks are enemies of all of us. They only understand violence, so their blood has to be shed in order to bring them to their knees.” During his two terms of Public Order Ministry in the PASOK government, Papathemelis supported terrorism against Turkey in Greek Cyprus. In October 29, 1994, while Turks in northern Cyprus were celebrating their “Republic Day Festival”, Public Order Minister of Greece came to the island and participated in a convention in Lefkoşa (Nicosia). In the convention, he got together with representatives of the PKK, ASALA and a Greek terrorist organization functioning in Cyprus under the name of “Committee of Solidarity with Kurdistan”. In the convention, the future terrorist activities in Turkey for the year 1995 were discussed and decisions were made.



· Another person who was helping the terrorist activities of the PKK was a PASOK politician Panayotis Sguridis, who was the vice president for the president of the Greek Parliament, Apostolos Kaklamanis. He was a fan of terrorist chief Abdullah Öcalan, who killed 35,000 innocent people. Sguridis paid countless visits to PKK camps in Syria and Lebanon and met Öcalan there.



· Among the other Greek politicians who supported the PKK terrorist organization, were PASOK deputy Dimitrios Vunatsos, Greek Parliament President Apostos Kaklamanis, ex-Minister of Education Dimitrios Arsenis, ex-Minister of National Defense Tsohazopoulos, ex-Minister of Foreign Affairs Pangalos. During the first term of the Prime Minister Andreas Papandreou, PKK's activities in Greece, which used to be an important educational and logistical base for the PKK, were moved to Greek Cyprus as a result of pressure from Turkey and reactions from the world. As Greek Cyprus started to reach some of it goals in accessing the EU in the mid-1990s, it got encouraged and intensified the support for the PKK that it once gave to ASALA as a so-called state policy, in accord with hostility toward Turkey and the goal of capturing the whole island to itself.



In this context:



· In 1990, offices of Kurdistan National Liberation Front (ERNK) and Kurdish Democratic People's Unions (YDK) opened in Lefkoşa.



· Following this, Kurdistan Culture Association Office was opened in Limassol.



· Trodos, Mashera and Stavrovoru terrorist camps were built in order to train PKK members and send them to Turkey to commit terrorist activities. The camp in Trodos was built on the land that belongs to the Greek National Church.



· Moreover, two offices in Limasol and Lefkoşa that belonged directly to PKK were opened with special help from Cypriot Greeks.



· It was confirmed that in the March of 1996 Greek Orthodox Church invited the head terrorist Öcalan to city of Baf (Paphos) and gave him a significant amount of money.



· It was known that in 1990s, the PKK was smuggling arms over Lazkiye Harbor while trafficking drugs to Europe through Greek Cyprus.



................



finally from your own Indymedia:

http://athens.indymedia.org/

[VIDEO] Greece: Shocking Video of the Torture of Immigrants Inside Police Station

Submitted by blackandred on Mon, 2007-06-18 23:24. Greece | Migration | Security apparatus | Terrorism | Video

Athens, Greece: Shocking Video of the Torture of Immigrants Inside Police Station



Saturday, June 16 2007 @ 03:29 AM PDT - Infoshop News

http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=200706160329...







A lot of times in the past we came across immigrants, youth, protesters, and generally individuals who had the marks of state terrorism on their body.



This time we have evidence to show: a video from inside a police station where you can see two Albanian immigrants being tortured by at least one civil cop with a big baton. As part of the torture he forces them to hit each other in order to satisfy his masochist authoritarian appetite and the appetites of his fellow-pigs who watch...



Similar torture happen again and again. In the recent insurgency of the prisoners all around Greece, we had reports of whole riot squads entering prison cells and torturing all...the prisoners [together]. The cops are not human beings, they choose not to be!



Download the video before they erase it. Circulate it as widely as possible, so everyone...knows what's happening in Greece.



THE POLICE IS THE OCCUPATION FORCE OF DEMOCRACY!



http://mostlywater.org/video_greece_shocking_video_of_the_torture_of_immigrants_inside_police_station
Leonarda
2007-09-21 11:59:31 UTC
Because it is clear that you are from there..Simple...


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